We all suffered Guest: Georges Salines

IE: Hello and welcome back to another episode of We Can Find a Way. This podcast is sponsored by Dr. Paolo Michele Patocchi, Attorney at Law and Arbitrator. I'm grateful for his engagement with alternative dispute resolution in Turkey by participating in multiple conferences, teaching at Bilkent University in Ankara, and now supporting this podcast We Can Find a Way.

In the previous episode of We Can Find a Way, I covered how the Belgian NGO Retissons du Lien was established after the terror attacks in Belgium in 2016. At this time, I will be speaking to a father from France who lost his child in the Bataclan attack in Paris in 2015. His name is Georges Salines and he will explain how he got involved with Retissons du Lien. I will give Georges short bio at the end of this episode. But now let's dive into the interview which took place on 12th February 2025.

Can you tell me what made you to get included in Retissons du Lien?

GS: Actually, it happened in several steps. My first encounter with some of the members of this group was May 2016. So just a few months after the death of my daughter after the Bataclan attack. And at the time I was the chairman of the NGO I had founded, which was a victims group. We were very interested by every conferences and events trying to find answers about the causes of terrorism; what could we possibly do to fight against terrorism. And in this context I was invited to a conference in Paris, but it was organized by an English NGO actually. I discovered later that there are some controversies about this NGO in Britain, but I didn't care at the time.

They invited a lot of families of person who died during the attacks. But also, they invited a small group of mothers. There were no men at the time, mothers of young persons who went to join the ISIS in Syria. Fatima was present at this meeting. That's how I met her. And I was very impressed by her. And at the time her son was still alive. He was a prisoner in Syria. He died a few months later. I was really, really impressed by this meeting because I really wasn't expecting to meet these women. I was very curious and because you know, I think most of us can imagine, or think they can imagine what it is to be a victim. Because a victim is anybody, really. But it is, rather difficult to understand how a person can come inside the concert hall and shoot everybody. It defies my understanding. So, I was eager to try and understand where did these people come from and what was their story? What could possibly explain why they had done what they had done? And what could we possibly do…

IE: to stop this…

GS: to avoid future dramas like this. I was very interested, by listening these mothers speak about their child; the process of radicalization. Maybe, I have to admit I was surprised to discover women who were not fitting the image I had in mind of “the mother of a Jihadist”. Clearly there was Christian mothers, atheists mothers or Muslim mothers like Fatima, but without an ounce of violence or extremism or radicalization in them. So what had happened to their child? And, I discovered also how much they had suffered; how much they were still suffering from the loss of their child. And in this regard, we were very close to each other because my daughter is dead. And, their son or their daughter, were dead also. I discovered how much they were suffering from the way that the other people considered them. How they had been, treated by the police, for example. Because most of them had suffered from visits of the police in their home. And often at night, the little, sisters and brothers had been frightened by the intrusion of the police. This meeting was a revelation, for me. And I stayed in touch, more or less, with these women.

A few months later, I received an email at the NGO at our office from Azdyne Amimour, who was requesting a meeting with me. He was asking for the opportunity to talk to me. Azdyne is the father of Samy Amimour. Samy Amimour was one of the three terrorists who attacked the Bataclan.

IE: So he directly called you?

GS: Yeah, without specifying exactly what he was looking for. So I replied, cautiously. I replied, okay, but why do you want to meet me for? And his answer was not very detailed either. But I accepted to meet him precisely because I had met these mothers a few months before. Azdyne’s mail was in January 2017. We met in a bar in Paris. And, mostly I listened to him. He talked a lot, told me his complete story, and was very, very impressive. I was struck also, as I had been by the mothers by the personality, the character of Azdyne who also was absolutely not an extremist, an Islamist, a conservative Muslim. He was none of it. He was also a very charming guy, actually. But he was nervous, of course to meet me. But he's someone who can very easily turn on, the charm. And, he has a great smile and.. But the story he told me proved also that he was a very courageous man. Because his son left France in September 2013 to join ISIS.

IE: Wow! Long time.

GS: Yeah. And in June 2014, Azdyne on his own, decided to go to the Caliphate. He was present in Raqqa, the capital of Islamic State, the day, precise day, on which the Caliphate was declared. He followed the route of all the people who tried to join the Caliphate to the frontier between Turkey and Syria. He went to enter by himself. But eventually he had to call his son. His son arranged for a guide to fetch him at his hotel from Antakya, I think, in Turkey to Raqqa. When Azdyne tells his story, everybody is always, very Odyssey almost. But it's, in a way, it's deceptive because when he met his son, he discovered that they had nothing to talk about because his son was too deep into his new ideology. And they couldn't relate. Moreover, they practically never were alone. There was always a handler or an official from the Islamic State. They couldn't talk, really. And he even didn't have the chance to try and talk in order to convince him to leave. After just a few days, he decided to return without his son with the hope he had in mind that he could, at a later date, come back again. He was sick. He had health problems. He's a rather an old man. And at least he was able to get out which was not something easy because Samy already had a hierarchal position in the Caliphate that allowed him to obtain the permission for his old father given the permission to leave the Caliphate. And he came back, but that was it. And just, one year later, Samy Amimour came back to France to commit this atrocity. It was hard to tell you all this because it was, Azdyne Amimour who told me about Retissons du Lien because Azdyne had part of his life was and still is in Belgium, where he had small restaurants.

IE: So he came from Belgium to meet you?

GS: No, because it's only part of his life that is in Belgium, and part of his life is in France, in Paris. Traveling man. He is never at the same place. Part of his personality. I don't know exactly how Azdyne joined Retissons du Lien. I think it was through Saliha Ben Ali, another mother was, very very active at the time. And she had founded an NGO called, Save Belgium. She probably got in touch with him and invited him. So Azdyne invited me to attend a meeting of Retissons du Lien and I went. I think my first meeting, was end of 2017 or early 2018.

IE: And ever since you're involved with them?

GS: Yeah, I don't go to every meeting because I live in Paris.

IE: It's not that far, but still, it's an effort.

GS: Still.

IE: Your organization, I mean, the victims organization is also active?

GS: Yes, it is. But now I…most, my activities, with the victims groups France takes place within an umbrella group which is called, Association Française des Victimes du Terrorisme which gather victims from all type of terrorist events.

IE: Okay, so it's more like victims perspective focused?

GS: Yes, it's a group of victims, but we have this friendly relationship with Retissons du Lien. There is no similar organization in France. I regret it, but I don't have the time and energy to invent something like that in France. For example, this next meeting, I'm going with my friend Catherine Bertrand, who is a survivor of the Bataclan attack and who is the vice chairperson of AFVT.

IE: Why do you think there isn't a similar organization? Is it Restorative justice is less known in France? Or maybe they're not there yet. What do you think?

GS: I think it comes from the fact that in Belgium, and particularly in Brussels, the fact that the terrorists cell which committed the attacks both in Paris and in Brussels, most of the members came from Molenbeek. This other neighborhood…

IE: Belgium?

GS: In Brussels. So it was the Muslim community in Brussels was extremely shaken by these events and

IE: Extremely?

GS: Shaken. They were feeling guilty, at least they were asking themselves: are we guilty or not? And, what can we do? And there was in Belgium, I think much more than in France, a community reaction-activity from the Muslim community itself to create NGOs like SAVE Belgium. And they organized the fight against the extremists much more than in France, through these initiatives. Eventually they met victims, in the beginning, mostly victims of the attacks of 22nd of March 2016 in Brussels.

IE: So what did people think of you when you got involved with Retissons du Lien? I mean, in the sense of what kind of reactions you got from your friends or family?

GS: Actually, I was a little bit worried about that. What, people were going to think about, this crazy idea of meeting parents of terrorists and especially with Azdyne. But very rapidly, I discovered that when I explained things, they understood perfectly. I never had any problem in my family, with my friends and with my fellow victims who were involved in French, groups of victims in France. Never. The only persons who criticized me were far right activists, speaking very loudly on the social networks. But I don't care.

IE: So what have you learned after being in this group?

GS: I have learned that clearly the families, the parents of terrorists. But it's also true of the families of any person who have trouble with the law… They are always victims because the consequences of the acts, especially terrorists. But, think about the sexual delinquent or murderer of any sort. The consequences for their family is always tremendous. In most cases, those families are guilty of nothing. They did they could the best for their child, the best education, the best moral principles, and they fail. Parenting is very difficult. So, this is very clear for me. I also learned a lot about the causes of the different factors which can explain why those young persons, join a group like ISIS. It's a very difficult and complicated subject. I started to learn about it, speaking with their parents. Later I had, the opportunity to speak to a lot of Jihadists. When I meet them, they are either in jail or they are out of jail.

IE: Probably they're under police service.

GS: And when they are out of jail, all the ones I met, out of jail were not involved anymore in any political activities. They were, very repentant and critical about what they had done.

IE: Do you have a message for other people who went through similar situations like you, like loss of a child?

GS: Yeah, it's difficult to provide advices because everybody….

IE: No, it's a message. No advice.

GS: Yeah, but it's a message. But the message is victims are almost always treated like passive persons. At least for me and I think for a lot of other victims, it's very good to become active, to start taking in our own hands, our fate. And it is, one of the reasons why I believe in restorative justice because it's important to attend the trial. But a trial is a process in which everybody talks for the victims: the lawyer, the judge, the prosecutor, and even the victim's lawyers talk to the accused lawyers. But the victim and the accused never talk to each other. So restorative justice is a way to put all that aside and start being an actor of your own destiny. I think we covered, pretty much the subject, was very interesting talking to you Idil.

IE: Thank you.

GS: Thank you.

IE: Georges Salines is a retired public health doctor. His youngest child Lola, was killed at the Bataclan attack that took place in Paris in 2015. Georges rejected revanchism and created with other victims an NGO and he's currently also an administrator of the French Association of the Victims of Terrorism. He's a vocal public speaker in many places to combat intolerance and religious violence. He attended the Bataclan hearings and advocated for restorative justice processes for victims. He wrote two books, one of which was co written with Azdyne Amimour, father of one of the three attackers at Bataclan.

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As always, I'd like to close by thanking musician Imre Hadi and artist Serang Yoktan who allowed me to use their music and photograph in the podcast. Thank you and hope to meet you in the next episode.