Time is ticking for listening to women

I.E: In this program, my guest is Andrea Kupfer Schneider who will be talking about gender and negotiation. Hello, and welcome to We Can Find A Way, a podcast about conflict resolution. My name is Idil Elveris. This is a podcast that pioneers a culture change in handling conflict because conflict is everywhere. It is also the only bilingual podcast that addresses conflict on an international scale. The podcast is sponsored by Koc Attorney’s at Law, the Istanbul and Antalya-based boutique law firm. Founding partners of Koc Attorney at Law are staunch believers of using dialogue and finding common ground to resolve conflicts. They are very happy to be supporting this podcast in the hope that it will help advance the much needed discussion on de-escalation and reduction of polarization in conflict situations within the legal practice as well as in the public discourse. And of course, I'm also very happy for their support.

I should inform you to check the website of the podcast that my Marketing Manager, Julia Nelson helped me to improve so much. Thank you so much, Julia. There are guests, their life stories, descriptions of episodes, transcripts, and all sorts of information. After all this introduction, let me now come to the guest of this episode who is Andrea Kupfer Schneider.

She is a professor of law and director of the Kukin program for conflict resolution at Cardoso School of Law. She taught alternative dispute resolution, negotiation, ethics, and international conflict resolution for over two decades. She oversaw the ADR program at Marquette University, Law School in Wisconsin, and she co-authored several textbooks and books in the field as well as numerous articles on negotiation, plea bargaining, negotiation pedagogy, ethics, gender and international conflict. She has served as the co-editor of the ABA dispute resolution magazine and is a founding editor of ‘Indisputably’, the blog for ADR law faculty. In two thousand sixteen, she gave the first TEDx talk titled ‘Women Don't Negotiate and Other Similar Nonsense’. She was named the 2017 recipient of the American Bar Association section of Dispute Resolution Award for Outstanding scholarly work, the highest scholarly award given by the ABA in the field of dispute resolution. She and I talked about why law schools need to teach negotiation, her work about gender and negotiation, what skills women have in negotiation and what skills that I need to work on, if at all, and how workplaces can be better by having more women in managing positions. With that, let me now turn to our interview that took place on 20th February 2023. Andrea, good to talk to you today.

A.S: Happy to.

I.E: Why do law schools need to teach negotiation to law students and how do you teach those classes?

A.S: I actually think that negotiation skills are life skills. And if I had my way, we would be teaching them to every student everywhere regardless of the profession. I think all of us need to focus on communication, to think about how we can be persuasive. And I think for too long, many of us have relied on the environment or mentoring or our family dynamics and we show up at law school, but also in other areas of our lives, assuming that those are the communication skills we have and that there's nothing we can do to get better. Either we’re good listeners or we’re not. Either we’re good advocates or we’re not. I think that's a close-minded way of thinking about it. So I think for law students, as they are expanding their horizons and really thinking about how they are going to serve clients, how they are going to serve society and how they're going to serve themselves. These negotiation skills are crucial. And so I think it's really important that our law students are getting them. We hire lawyers in part to negotiate on our behalf to be our advocates. So I think it is a required professional training, a required skill set that lawyers need to have even more than anybody else. I just think everybody else would benefit also.

Negotiation is a skill set. And there's a lot of really important theory. I like to think about that that's one of the things that makes me very happy. What is the theory of what's going to work and how do we test that and how do we know. So it's not to discount the importance of empirical work and theory and making sure that students are exposed to all of these lessons. Building on top of that theory is I think a really important focus on practice so that the best negotiation classes will be grounding students in the readings and concepts and ideas from law, from cognitive psychology, from communication, from political science. Right? There's a lot of people who have written for hundreds of years about how to persuade people, but then for practical purposes and to get students to improve their skills, there has to be practice. And so in negotiation classes, I think it's really important that you have role plays every week, that you are engaged in interactive activities in one way or another that really encourage students to reflect and to continue to grow. I think there's good micro-exercises out there of try this, now try it again, now try it again and really honing in on the skills that students need. The importance is to learn about a concept, to practice it, to review how it worked and to do it again, and really that cycle of theory to practice, to practice to theory and action review, reaction, redo of just ongoing learning and reflecting, I think, is really important. The last thing I'll say about any negotiation class is at most we get students for a semester.

Negotiation is a lifelong skill. So in some ways, I think the most important thing that we can teach our students is to really create that skill of self-reflection and self-growth and have that mindset where you can look at yourself and take a step back and say, wow, that conversation didn't go so well. What do I need to do? How can I learn from that? What can I do differently the next time? Or similarly, like, oh my god that negotiation was great. I got exactly what I wanted. What did I do? And how can I translate that to do it again? And really building that skill of lifelong reflection and skill building is probably the most important thing we can do because we only get them for a short period of time over the course of their professional lives.

I.E: Tell us about your work on gender and negotiation.

A.S: When I first took my negotiation class in law school, we had a gender day, which about, you know, two thirds of the class, of the way through the semester, we now had a class on differences and how gender, race, ethnicity, other things may play into negotiation. And it got me wondering, what was I learning for the last eight weeks. Does that not apply to me? I'm so confused. What does this mean? And also, back in the day, it seemed that there was a specific advice for women to be more assertive and to be more it appeared like a guy. At least for me, that was advice that I didn't need. That no one, as I like to joke in my family, and I think this is really the important of recognizing how important it is that your family and the dynamics that you've created within your family, really play out. In my family, you know, there was no problem with women being assertive and talking and being rewarded for that. Right? You know, I went into high school debate and speech. You know, when I argued my mom was like, great, go to law school. And it really wasn't until I was a law professor that I realized that is not true for all women. So it was this whipsaw of, wow, I don't need that advice. That's crazy. Oh, there are people who actually need that advice because of cultural norms, family dynamics, their own whatever it is that they bring to the table that actually is not making them as effective.

That was some of the work that I got into early on of really trying to research what was the difference for female lawyers on behalf of clients because many of the early empirical studies of lawyers didn't even have enough women to be able to draw conclusions. My study that I did in 1999 and 2000 really was looking at women lawyers and finding that effective equals effective. And we now see that in a variety of different empirical studies, whether it's in business or higher education, leadership studies, you know, what makes an effective negotiator, an effective communicator, an effective leader is regardless of gender. It is the skill set that you have. Because of what we ourselves bring to the table, you might need to work on one or more of those skills, and of course, what other people assume about you. And so recognizing that there are also assumptions placed by others in terms of what they expect, how you should be leading, how you should be negotiating. And so my later research in the last decade has been twofold. One is really looking at what's been happening as we've continued to study women into the next generation.

Again, some of the assumptions about “women don't negotiate” are just not true. We were looking at eighteen and twenty year olds and making assumptions about what forty year olds are doing in the workplace. And that's not true. The broad studies are that women are negotiating in all of their lives. Again, no difference from women lawyers being assertive and helpful and all of those things on behalf of their clients.

And also what I've started to focus on, I have three boys. Half my law school class are men. What's the advice that they need because of the way that they've been socialized? And again, we all know some men who are extraordinarily gifted on emotional intelligence, empathy, able to read people's moods and all of those things, and we know people who are not. That was not rewarded in their family, that was not rewarded by their friends. And all of a sudden, it's a skill set that every law book business school leadership book is talking about how important it is to have this kind of intelligence and yet they were never trained on it. And so at least for some men or for alpha, however it is and whatever gender. People need to work on listening and negotiation classes can be equally important to work on how you ask good questions, how you engage in active listening, how you value the other side, how you establish rapport. Those are crucial skills in negotiation. And so, we really want people to have that skill set across the board.

I.E: What skills do women have in negotiation? And what skills do they need to really work on?

A.S: Many of these studies have been done without distinction, you know, in terms of orientation or any other kind of gender markers. I should also say that everybody operates on a range of, quote, feminine to masculine, these are themselves constructs. It's really important to, as you're looking at skills, locate yourself on the range of these skills, regardless of your gender and figure out what you need to improve. Having said that, what we know studies that have been done show that women as they have been socialized tend to be better at making eye contact, at reading emotions, at reading a smile as to whether it's a happy smile or a nervous smile, at understanding other people's moods, at reading body language signals. All of those things that comes out of the cognitive psychology and behavioural economics, that nonverbal communication literature kind of social intuition and emotional intelligence. Those are the things that women have tended to be much better at and score higher at. And those are the things that more men need to be trained on, shall we say? And interestingly, you know, even in some of the trainings on hostage negotiation teams. Right? The most alpha alpha….

The people who have been in their police forces are in their military for a decade, now need to add the skill set of “How do you build rapport? How do you build trust? How can you establish those connections?”. For other people, again, a lot of women have been socialized already to do this. This is a skill they have. You now need to balance it with the willingness to be more assertive. To make an argument, to open your mouth and to defend what you have to say. It really is for people to say, okay, here are the skills that I bring to the table, and here are the skills that I need to work on.

I.E: I was listening to your Ted Talk and you actually mentioned assertiveness, empathy, flexibility, social intuition, and ethicality. What you have mentioned so far really falls under empathy and social intuition. Maybe you can a little bit discuss ethicality and flexibility and then you're kind of saying that women have to work on their assertiveness if I understood the Ted Talk correctly, but please elaborate on that.

A.S: I think, again, many of us have been socialized that we're fine, and you have it. And particularly, if you're choosing self-selecting into law school, into business, chances are that you have that within and you're choosing a career in which you're advocating on behalf of others. And if you don't, that's something that you're going to want to add to your skill set. The other two skills are really the broad array of what makes an effective negotiator.

And I look at flexibility in two ways. One is, are you flexible as to how you're approaching a dispute? Sometimes you wanna barrel right through. You wanna say what you have to say. And other times, it makes sense to listen to them first and dance around and let me see how this works and it's going to depend on who you're negotiating with. And, frankly, how important it is. If it's not that important, it might actually make sense to stick your head in the sand and avoid it. There really is a range of approaches to think about negotiation. And so really effective negotiators are also managing their time and energy in terms of when do I really engage in problem solving, when is it not something I need to do?

The other part of flexibility is thinking about the specific outcomes. And this goes back to negotiation literature kind of 101. From getting to yes, and everybody else thinking about problem solving of, is there more than one way of meeting your interest? If I am overworked, at my job and I go to negotiate with my boss: One way is to pull something off my plate. But another way is perhaps to get me assistance, keep all the projects under my umbrella, give me assistance. Another way is to pay me more and I'll feel better about how overworked I am. Right? Another way is to promise that there's going to be more vacation time when I'm done. All of those are different ways of dealing with the problem. And if I walk into a negotiation and say, you must remove this from my plate or else, you're missing opportunities to think about different ways to make you happy. So that's outcome flexibility and really thinking about that as well. So that's the flexibility part of skills. And there do not appear to be gender differences in this per se other than we know from leadership studies that women are more likely to consult before deciding to get few more opinions and to listen. And to the extent that you're getting more opinions, more information that makes it more likely that you're going to come up with a creative option. So I would say, be sure to listen to others and don't always feel like you are the only one who has to solve.

Ethicality: my lovely made up word for all things that have to do with your ethics, reputation, building trust, being worthy of trust yourself, in terms of how people deal with that. Because the fact of the matter is that most of our interactions are repeated. We are negotiating within our families, with the same people. We are negotiating at work, with the same people even in very big cities. Lawyers are negotiating and they know each other and they have repeat interactions. We can find out people's reputations from the internet anyway. The idea of really being aware that your reputation is valuable. That is an important piece of how you present yourself in a negotiation that you should, you know, do what you say and say what you mean. And in any of these work interactions, be aware of how you are building trust. The advantage of this is obviously when you reach an agreement, everybody's more likely to comply and do it. But even over the course of the negotiation, when people trust you, they give you more information. People with good reputations who can trust one another are more likely to share information and have those integrative agreements. Those are the things that will also help you become more effective.

I.E: After 9/11, there was a commission established to determine the amounts to be paid to all the firefighters and to all those people who have died there. Who has negotiated all of this was Ken Feinberg. Just two weeks ago, we had this horrible earthquake in Turkey and I have been thinking that should be the way in every city because we're talking about millions of people. A woman in this type of catastrophes brings additional value or, like, women negotiators in these type of commissions or in these type of situations….What is your take on that?

A.S: So many things here. I'm not the first one to notice that you know when there are only men at the peace negotiations, for example, at the diplomatic side that’s not necessarily always a good thing. A lot of issues and interests are not necessarily covered, just not even things that are discussed. And so there has long been a movement and studies and work by others that say you really need in any of these crisis to have everybody at the table, and it really is a diversity of thought. It's more than gender. It's class and it's education. And it's professional expertise. And all of these different things that if you're not open to listening to others, you're going to miss important issues. And so we've talked about that, you know, that's been an issue in peace building during the pandemic. And so there was a whole slew of stories in 2020 into 2021, how women politically were viewed as more effective leaders and kept their population safe.

There was also studies in Harvard Business Review looking at women managers, women in companies, in businesses who were seen as more effective leaders in crisis that when things really go poorly, you need leaders who have all of the skills that we've just discussed. Right? That they're communicating, that they're empathetic, that they're gathering lots of opinions, that they're not pretending they know everything, that they're open to other ideas. There's a whole bunch of studies about that.

Wonderful thing with Ken Feinberg is that over 20 years where he really established this kind of program of: how do you deal with the tragedy of that scale? And it's been used in the United States for oil spills and environmental disasters. And, you know, in other countries, obviously, this builds on truth and reconciliation commissions, other types of transitional justice, where you're able to have and hear from multiple parties. Your note of city by city, could we look at a fund? Could you do something more than require each individual family to sue each individual developer. And are you suing the person who built the building, the person who poured the cement, the city officials who did or did not….  

I.E: Crazy.

A.S: I mean, that seems insane. And so really thinking about one of Feinberg's gifts was he was not individually making these decisions. He understood how you set up a program and how you set up criteria, and then, how do you scale that? What you want also is for each victim to be able to tell their story in a way that is respectful that they are heard. Again in transitional justice, if you're not validated as you're telling your story and if there's not compensation for that, that's a problem. Right? Even going back to South Africa, it was wonderful that people told their story about what happened. But if the economic situation doesn't change, and the rights are still the same, it's still a significant problem.

I:E: Yep. Lastly, how can workplaces or law firms have more women in managing positions?

A.S: You know, it takes leadership, which is often men in positions of power to realize that their businesses will be better run with a diverse group of leadership.

There is study upon study that shows that Boards of Directors make better decisions once they are more diverse, once they have women, once they have minorities, that companies whose management is diverse, are making better decisions. That even investments, right, you miss whole areas of how to invest in the world if you are ignorant of fifty percent of the population who by the way make seventy percent of the purchasing decisions. Who are you marketing to? Right? If you're not diversifying who is in leadership, making those decisions, somebody else will step in. Somebody else will make those decisions. We'll be marketing to your customers. And, you know, I think there's the socially just thing to do, which is that companies and governing bodies should reflect the populations that they serve, which are more than fifty percent women and have diverse populations as well but there's also the economic argument. And there's just a whole host of studies out here.

So I think whether it's law firms or companies, I think the clock is ticking and you can continue to stick your head in the sand and not promote women, but the clock is ticking. Somebody else will. Somebody else will have figured out how to take advantage of half of college graduates, half of law school graduates, are we really saying that there's no contribution to be had and that these educated women are going to be content, not contributing to society? I think is a little crazy. And now we also are seeing what happens in Asia, in particular, when kind of assumptions about parenting, motherhood, gender roles really get played out over time. So, I hope everybody continues to do the right thing, not only because it's the right thing, but it is the smart thing to do.

I:E: Anything you would like to add?

A.S: It's been a pleasure. This is lots of fun.

I.E: In this program, my guest was Andrea Kupfer Schneider. She explained how negotiation skills were needed in everyone's life and how law schools can teach negotiation. She also explained that as times have changed, men also needed to up their skills in negotiation. Although men or women could be different given different families and socialization, both could still always learn new skills, including in negotiation. So I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, please follow the podcast, like or share it. Go to the website of the podcast and take a look at it, comment on it. You can also like the excerpts I share in my YouTube channel or in the Instagram account of we can find a way, I would like to close by thanking my sponsor, Koç Attorneys at Law, and my Marketing Manager, Julia Nelson. And special thanks go to musician Imre Hadi and artist Zeren Göktan, who allowed me to use their music and picture in the podcast. Thank you and see you next time.